Advice Column  1999

Submitted by Laurie in the USA on January 5, 1999:

I'm stressing out. The horse isn't but I am. I bought a 3 yr old 1/2 Saddelbred 1/2 Arabian in May 98. As I was signing the contract with the guy I bought her from he said; "Oh by the way... she might be bred." This would be her first (Serenity) and mine too. He said; "Hey you might get two for the price of one." I didn't see it that way. I was ready to take jumping lessons and I had no idea how to foal a horse let alone raise a colt. I almost didn't buy her but I loved her and I thought she would be better hands with me. This man treats his hroses more like live stock then pets. He let her run with a 2yr. stallion thinking he wouldn't be able to produce. I had a vet check her. He was wrong!!! She's pregnant. I live in Iowa and you may have heard it is 6 below zero and we have a foot & 1/2 of snow. My stall is 9x11 & cold. I've decided to move her to the garage, we are cleaning it now. My basemant ceiling was too low or I would move her there. The garage has a cement floor that I will cover with straw but I don't know how to keep the garage warm with out burning it down. I've read all I can get my hands on about foaling but have not found much information at all on Cold Weather Foaling.

She started to bag out Dec.31st 98, they are small. Her butt is softening and her vulva is lengthening. I have no idea when she is due. The farmer didn't know when she was bred. I've heard such horror stories about cold weather babies. I contacted the only large animal vet around here willing to work with horses, but he really was not interested in my problem. Please.... I need help. Could you advice me or show me where to get information. I am so worried. I am prepared to sleep with her and the mice when it is closer and she will only be turned out during the day if you think that’s ok. I have kept up on her boosters and wormings but I am wondering if it's to late to give her the last booster. I am so glad I found this web site. I have spent hours reading. I may have already sent you an e-mail but because I am computer illiterate I thought I had better send another one. Thank-you for listening.

Hi Laurie,

I sympathize with your concern about the cold. I live in Ohio and today it's -7. Not too much fun!!

I think the best thing you can do is keep the mare in her stall. The cement floor in your garage would be dangerous for both the mare and the foal. Even with straw down, it will be very slippery. And when the straw gets wet, it'll be even worse. My suggestion would be to cover the outside of the stall with plastic, then get two or three heat lamps and put them up in the stall. You'll be amazed how warm that will keep a stall of that size. It'll be plenty warm for a healthy foal. It won't do much for you sleeping out in the barn, but then, we always do better for the animals, don't we?! :-) The only other thing that concerns me is the size of the stall. It is a little small, and although it will probably be fine, I wondered if there was the possibility of moving her someplace else with a larger stall? I realize that's a pain and may not be possible. Just a thought.

About vaccinations--if the mare is bagging up, it's probably too late as far as the foal is concerned. The vaccinations need to be given at least 30 days prior to the delivery date to give the mare's system enough time to produce the antibodies that she will pass on to the foal. However, if the mare hasn't had a tetanus booster within the last six months, she should get that for sure.

It's fine for the mare to go out during the day. As she gets closer to foaling, though, with the extreme cold, you should keep a really close watch on her while she's out. Wouldn't want her dropping a poor baby into a foot and a half of snow!

So, relax, cover the stall, put up some heat lamps, and I'm sure everything will be fine! Maybe you'll be really lucky and get a heat wave of 30 or 40 degrees when Serenity decides to foal!

Please let us know all about your new baby.

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Submitted by Dena in Canada on January 6, 1999:

I have an appaloosa mare due Feb 26/99 who will be 20 yrs old in May/99. She has had 10 + foals. At 283 days pregnant she bagged up (took 2 days), waxed and started dripping milk. The mare showed signs of impending birth -- pawing, relaxation of tail head. Her foal was still alive and moving. This mare foaled last Mar 15/98 with a huge colt and had no problems foaling. She was bred back March 24 & 26 and ultrasounded Apr 15. No twins detected but they can be missed. No vet has checked this mare but after consulting one we are giving 3cc progesterone once daily, 35cc ethacilen twice daily and 1 gram of bute twice daily. Vet believes we are dealing with infection. The foal is still active at 286 days but the mare is still progressing toward birth. Utter is down and not quite as hard still has wax but not dripping milk. The tail head is really lose and vulva is lengthening and becoming puffy. Any advice on premature foals would be appreciated. All thought on handling this mares pregnancy to prevent early birth too. Please note advice is urgently required!!!

Dear Dena,

It's very possible that the mare has a case of placentitis going on which, if left untreated, will certainly cause her to abort. Fortunately, it sounds like your vet is on top of things. I don't know what ethacilen is. Is it an antibiotic? A form of penicillin? If it is, that's great. We've had the best luck with penicillin in cases like this. Also, the vet I worked for found that Banamine has better effects than bute because the Banamine helps when there is a toxin release. I've seen mares turn around quickly, in a matter of hours sometimes, with a dose of Banamine along with the penicillin. It would be worthwhile to discuss the possibility of using Banamine with your vet.

Usually, if placentitis is the problem and the treatment is working, the udder will begin to regress and the vulva and hips will begin to tighten within about 24 hours from the first dose of penicillin. If placentitis isn't the problem, then there won't be improvement. Even if you don't see improvement, though, I certainly wouldn't stop the treatment. As you suggested, another possibility is twins and one has died.

It's encouraging that the foal is still active. Many times, you can detect a significant decrease in foal activity if the foal's in trouble. I'd be very concerned about the foal's chance for survival if it's born at 286 days. Unfortunately, my experience has been that if they're born before 310 days, their chances aren't good. But with all premies, colostrum, plenty of food, warmth, nursing care, and expert veterinary support are essential.

I'm very happy that your vet is reacting so well to the situation. Please keep us updated. I know everyone will be keeping their fingers crossed for you. Hang in there!

Follow up by Dena on January 8, 1999:

Just an update on Rosie. On day 286 her medication was switched to 3cc daily progesterone, 5cc daily banamine and 55cc trimethoprim 24mg/ml - sulfamethoxazole 120mg/ml. She is still hanging on and the foal was moving last night. The Ethacilin (sterile penicillin G procaine suspension) and bute were used originally as they were the drugs I had on hand the night Rosie took sick to treat her. And her prospects of hanging on that night were slim to none. My vet is still caring for Rosie one day at a time and her outlook is far from promising as far as the foal's concerned. Thanks so much for your help. In times like this the more knowledgeable people who are consulted the greater knowledge gained the better the odds. I will keep you posted on Rosie as we go.

Hi Dena,

Thanks so much for the update. I'll keep my fingers crossed because I've seen some mares held off for as long as six weeks with proper treatment (if the problem is placentitis). There's still hope! It's encouraging that you're still seeing foal movement.

Please keep us posted and take care.

Follow up by Dena on January 25, 1999:

Just a quick note to let you know Rosie is now at day 305. She is showing no abnormal signs of foaling now. Her udder is down and normal for a mare 4 weeks from foaling. She is still on 3cc progesterone, 2.5cc banamine and 55cc trimethoprim-sulfa. once daily. Can you tell me approx when Rosie should be taken off the progesterone? Do I have to take her off the banamine before she foals? When we stopped her banamine earlier within 24 hours she was very lame in one hip. I believe the foal is causing her the problem from possibly where it is lying. Is it possible that it could be pinching a nerve? Rosie never did tighten back up in the tail muscles. Three times she has passed small amounts of blood when getting up after she's been laying down. The foal is still active and we can see it moving.

Hi Dena,

Thanks so much for writing. I've wondered many times how Rosie is doing. It's great to hear that she's still holding on. I'm not sure what to tell you about the problem with her hip. It could be that the foal is causing her pain. 2.5cc of Banamine a day is a very small amount. I think I'd be tempted to take her off again and see what happens. If she needs something for pain, it would probably be good to talk to the vet about bute instead of Banamine. The Banamine is used, in this instance, for reasons other than pain. As far as continuing the progesterone, my experience has been that when the signs of impending delivery regress, the progesterone is stopped. On mares that routinely stay on progesterone for their whole pregnancies, it is usually stopped 2-3 weeks prior to their due dates. It would absolutely be best to discuss this with your vet.

Another two weeks and she should be in a safe zone! We'll be keeping our fingers crossed. Please keep us updated.

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Submitted by Janet in the USA on January 8, 1999:

This is my mare's 2nd foal. The first time she showed no signs whatsoever. With your experience with mares, what are the chances that she will do this again? There is also something else when asking the vet about stall preparations he suggested leaving her in the pasture because that is more natural for the horse then a stall, but I am worried about her and want her up by the house were I can keep an eye on her. I do have a sizeable corral in front of the barn to keep her in, were she would have plenty of room and I could get her in the barn if needed. She is due to foal the last week in February. The weather here in Kansas is not exactly warm. I would just like to know what you think of this and maybe some suggestions.

Hi Janet,

Chances are very good that your mare will show more signs with the second foal. It seems that usually, once their bodies have been through the whole process, they are more predictable the next time. Having said that, I have to add that there's always the possibility that she won't show any more signs. Unfortunately, they don't always "play by the rules!" :-)

I have no problem with mares foaling outside--as long as the weather is nice, the mare is in a paddock by herself, and it's certain that the foal can't be delivered under a fence, winding up on the other side from Mom. However, in Kansas in February, I believe I'd like to have her inside. She should have plenty of turnout, of course, but it would probably be better for her to be in a stall to foal. Do what you feel comfortable with. That's the most important thing. And I'm with you for sure--I like to be able to keep a close watch on them when they get close to delivery.

Please let us know all about your new foal!

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Submitted by Kelly in the USA on January 16, 1999:

I want to thank you for having this website here. I found it through the bookstore. I have read all of the questions and answers and I don't have any for you because you answered them. I am glad to hear that I am not the only person driving my vet crazy with questions. This is my first and my mare has had trouble with her hooves. She foundered five months ago and is now being let out on her own for a few hours. Here is a question for you: Have you ever had a mare founder due to being pregnant? I can't come up with any other reason. MY vet thinks that it was the wet winter that we had. I just hope that five months in a stall with only 2 hours of grazing a day doesn't hurt the baby. She is due April 16, 1999. I can't believe that my mare kept the pregnancy.

Hi Kelly,

Thanks so much for your kind words about the column. We all have questions and need reassurance and I'm very grateful that The Horse Forum has provided a place where people can talk about their concerns.

In answer to your question, no, I've never known a mare to founder strictly from being pregnant. In the ones I've seen, there was always another explanation. Your vet is probably correct in his evaluation. Also, there shouldn't be a problem with having your mare inside so much. Of course, it's good for them to get exercise, but sometimes that has to be balanced with preserving their health. The foal won't care--it was getting what it needed. It's good that the mare is getting out now, but be careful when that lush, spring grass starts coming up!

Thanks for writing and please let us know all about your new baby.

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Submited by Angela in the USA on January 22, 1999:

I have read ALL of the previous questions and have not seen an answer to the question I have... my mare is due to foal the last week of April, but she has a tendency to carry an additional 3 weeks from the 340 day "due date". I know one should give the mare's vaccinations at least 30 days before the due date for her to develop the immunity and be able to pass it on to the baby in the colostrum. My question: would it be too EARLY to give the shots if she carries an additional 2 months from when I have given them to her? If I give them to her at the suggested time, she could very well carry the baby for over 2 months longer!

I LOVE THIS PAGE!!! Thank you so much for doing such a wonderful service to so many people.

Hi Angela,

Thanks so much for your kind words about the column, and your very interesting question. It's a good one.

The immunity (and antibodies for the foal) from the vaccinations your mare will be given at 30 days before her presumed due date lasts a lot longer than two months, so there is no problem at all if she goes overdue. The only one that would be iffy is the Pneumabort because it only provides immunity for approximately two months. Ask your vet to be sure, but even if the mare goes more than a month overdue, it probably isn't necessary to give her another one.

Good luck and please let us know all about your new foal,

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Submitted by Jody in the USA on January 24, 1999:

Great column! I wish I had known about it before! I have a QH mare that foaled her third foal on Jan 16. We were there and this is our 10th foal, so I think we are used to most of the procedures necessary. I was laying next to the foal when the mother got up and had the umbilical cord covered well with iodine as soon as it broke. This is a Paint filly and her white belly and groin area was covered by the extra iodine, so I know I used plenty. I also treated the stump 2 more times within the next 18 hours, and it dried nicely and no dripping. At five days of age I noticed that there is swelling around the stump. It may have been there sooner, but at the end of the first day it wasn't. The filly is gaining 3 pounds a day, and at 7 days she has grown close to an inch in height. She is nursing, active, and has started playing in the mare's water and mouthing hay. My vet tells me that it could be nothing, it could be common swelling (in 10 foals, I've never had this) or it could be the start of joint ill. He wants me to wait for a fever before I bring her in. I've decided that this foal is too nice to take a chance on and we are taking her in to make sure it is not a hernia, but I've had those and this feels different. My vets here deal more with cattle, and not a lot of expensive foals. We all hope that each foal we raise will be a champion, and her full sister is well on her way. I would like your opinion, just to compare to what they say and for my peace of mind.

Hi Jody,

Congratulations on your foal ! And thanks for your kind words about the column.

If you are concerned about the foal's umbilical stump, then have it checked out. Your vet is right, it could be absolutely normal, but you are the one who is looking at it. A couple of things that I've seen cause owners concern that were really okay were: feeling the inner part of the cord, which feels like a solid tube under the skin; feeling loose skin; and as you mentioned, small hernias. If what you see isn't one of those, look for increasing swelling, heat in that area, and any sign of drainage. However, as I said, if you aren't sure it's okay, have the vet see it. And if you notice any increase in the swelling, heat, or drainage, or if the foal loses any of her brightness and vigor, don't wait for a fever before getting her to a vet!

Please let us know what happens.

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Submitted by Ginny in the USA on January 25, 1999:

Of all the foaling books I can get my hands on, yours has been the one I've enjoyed the most. I found this site by accident but I know I'll keep coming back.

This is my 4th year of foal watching. I work on a Thoroughbred farm near the college that I attend. Last year I had a mare that threw me 3 different complications. First, she red bagged. When I got the bag open, I noticed that all I had present was a nose because both of the front legs were back. When the vet arrived, he also determined that the foal was extremely large. All in all, it was about 30 minutes from the time the vet arrived until we got to the clinic. I'm not sure how long we waited for the vet. 15 minutes I think. To make a somewhat long story short, they did not do a c-section but pulled the foal out after they straightened his legs. What amazes me is that there were no broken ribs on the foal, nor did the mare tear. Both of them survived, and at weaning time the colt's withers were at my shoulder. I am 5'5". My question is this. Is a mare who has had a dystocia in the past predisposed to them in the future? I know for a fact that this mare is back in foal for this year.

Hi Ginny,

I'm so glad you've enjoyed the book! And welcome to the column!

Wow! What a mess with that mare! I think it's almost miraculous that the foal survived. Great work in identifying the problems and reacting quickly! It's been my experience that a mare with a malpositioned foal has a slightly greater chance of doing it again than one that's never had a positioning problem. Usually, it seems that these mares do tend to have very large foals. With the red bag problem, I do believe they have a significantly higher chance of doing it again. I've foaled ones that red bag every year. Once in a while, there will be one that will do it once and not again (at least when I've been with them). Bottom line is, if I know a mare has red bagged in the past, I watch her like a hawk when delivery is close.

Have fun on the breeding farm. Since most of my experience came on a large thoroughbred breeding farm, I'm a little jealous that you're there and I'm not!

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Submitted by Judy in the USA on January 27, 1999:

Wonderful site! We have a problem for which we have been unable to find anyone with experience. However, we do have a good veterinary university 4 hours from here with a good diagnostic lab who are willing to assist in any way they can. They are working with our local vets who are trying their best to help us. We have also worked with the ASPCA poison control center, who have been helpful and supportive. We have two remaining pregnancies on our property and will do just about anything to save them. One is due March 3rd (she is now 305 days gestation). The other is due 20 days later. One is a 6 year old QH maiden who competed successfully on the track for 3 years until we bought her as a foundation mare for Aztecas. Since our bay Andalusian colt is only 2, we bred her to a race horse last spring (Bully Bullion). This mare is a Dash for Cash and Jet Deck granddaughter, has a wonderful personality and conformation. The other mare is a maiden Peruvian 4 year old, in foal to the 1998 national champion of champions breeding stallion. We live in Texas. One mare was sent to CA for breeding, the other to OK. We have great hope for these foals. However, we are on the most unbelievable emotional roller-coaster imaginable. Here in a nutshell is the story: In 1996 an Andalusian mare of ours delivered a 305 day foal. We were out of town. Our farm manager attended the delivery. The feeling was that the colt could not survive. However, he was able to suck and did get some colostrum from a bottle and was still alive 12 hours later. Our vet loaded him up in the back seat of our son's car, and shipped him to A & M's ICU. He was 100% cartilage. He was raised on soft pillows, with comforters, IVs, O2 and around the clock technicians. The next day after delivery we brought the mare, who did accept her son. Her stall was adjacent to the incubator, so they were able to bond. 5 weeks later he was discharged and is now 16 - 17 hands and entering training. The mare cultured clean and was rebred on the foal heat. One month later another mare developed a bag in June (due Sept. 20 something). We were still in shock from the other prematurity, so called several experts for help. When she started dripping milk in July she was palpated. The cervix was dilating, the mucous plug was coming out, and the mare was considered imminent. She was started on Regumate and Banamine and antibiotics and isoxiprene. The vaginal discharge was cultured and nothing grew. She carried the foal to 315 days. The colt was born without muscle and was becoming bradycardic within a minute or two from birth (the vet was here in 5 minutes from our call that she was delivering). He gave the colt a cardiac and respiratory stimulant as well as glucose. We loaded the mare in the trailer and I carried the colt in my lap giving glucose every few minutes during the 4 hour trip to A & M. This foal was also non-infected, and was released in 10 or 12 days from ICU. He was so tiny that you could easily carry him around in your arms. (I think 45 lbs or so). Well, the saga didn't end there. This pattern has continued with variable outcomes: ICU, stillbirths, late term abortions, premies, dysmature fullterms or almost fullterms, etc. By September 11 pregnancies in different mares had been affected. Necropsy showed nothing abnormal with the foals, which appear to have been alive at the time of delivery and show signs of struggle. No infectious cause has been found, despite extended efforts to grow any pathogen (fungus, bacterial, viral). The placentas, mares, and foals are clean. The pattern has been pretty much unvarying: the mares bag up at >= day 272, drip milk, and deliver prematurely. (The exact opposite of fescue toxicity). In April, one of our most wonderful mares delivered a 308 day foal, experienced severe dystocia, the foal died and the mare foundered horribly (she is still stall bound). Within a month we had a uterine biopsy done. Results: Grade I uterus...no infection. No infection was found within 2 days of delivery when she was cultured either. At this point our whole family was stressed almost to the breaking point. Last summer we had one mare in which the pattern changed somewhat. This mare bagged up much earlier...at 90 days...complete with dripping milk. Apparently the fetus had died at that point, because when she passed the fetus and membranes 5 days later they had started to degrade. She had also developed a discharge, which tested positive for strep. This was the only pathogen identified in any mare, and the diagnostic lab felt it could have occurred after death, since the fetus was retained so long. All mares are vaccinated against Rhino, and the foals show no signs of the disease at all, the placentas are also free of the virus and the mares' titers are what would be expected with a vaccinated mare. Anyway, after that death the lab did toxicology studies and determined the mare's cholinesterase level was 5.4 (low normal: 32) indicating organophosphate or carbamate poisoning. The lab vets consulted with our vets and eight other horses in our herd, including colts, adults, and the mares who aborted or had premies were also tested for poisoning. All were poisoned. The foundered mare had a level of 3.7 and her 2 year old colt had a level of 4 something. My husband is a PhD chemist and he went on a comprehensive quest to find the source. We had hay, moss, bedding, bark tested at Auburn University. We hired an independent lab to test our well water as well as the spray from our overhead spray system (which really was only pyrethrins!). All tests were negative. Anyway, we went through the barn and did discover an organophosphate feed-thru which is supposed to be completely safe for pregnant mares. We stopped it and did follow-up cholinesterase levels about every 10 days for several months. The serum levels slowly improved, finally reaching normal levels of 40s late last fall. Living on the Tx. Gulf Coast where flies are rampant much of the year, many of these mares had been on this for years without much of a break. We had hoped for a quick end to the cycle, but it appears that if a mare was on it during early pregnancy she has little chance of carrying to term without help. Even mares sent away following conception have followed the same pattern. It apparently takes 120 days to clear the RBCs and is stored in fat, which can release with any weight loss. In September we lost another and on December 23rd we lost a ~296 day palomino colt. Again, all tests were negative. We have been told that the organophosphate poisoning has been known to be associated with abortion. For these last two, we are doing the following: they are on 20 mls. Regumate/ bedtime; 10 tablets trimetha. sulfate 2 X day (in case the OP is affecting the cervical and uterine tone...just as a preventative), they are being watched like a hawk. We have video surveillance. The one who is 305 days today is developing an udder, but it is still soft and the nipples are small. Is this normal at this stage? The foal appears vigorous and extremely active. The 285 day mare gave us a terrible scare last Friday. She was raising her tail, flapping it up and down, sweating, trying to urinate without much success, and in general looking like she was in labor. She was given something which stopped the pain and she walked out of it, the sweat dried, and she later began eating hay. Her udder is still soft, but is increasing somewhat in size. Have you ever heard of a situation such as this? Do you have any ideas at all on ways to save the remaining pregnancies, other or in addition to what we are doing? We were told that starting Regumate PRIOR to dripping milk would give us a better chance and this does appear to be the case. In the past we only started it when symptoms (dripping milk, etc.) occurred. These mares are further along than most and neither has started dripping. I see this as a good sign. Some days we feel optimistic. Other days we feel incredibly sad. Horses are some of God's most incredible, wonderful creatures. There would be nothing I would rather hear than the new whinnies of a full-term healthy foal. If you have any information at all on OP poisoning, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much for having such a wonderful board! I will order your book!

Dear Judy,

What a horrible ordeal! I'm so very sorry! I commend you, your husband, and the vets for narrowing down the cause of this awful series of events.

You asked about one of your mares bagging up at 305 days. I wouldn't consider that to be abnormal as long as it's just the beginning of udder development. However, it's impossible to say how quickly she will progress. If she followed a normal, slow development, it's fine, but it's also possible that she will progress very rapidly. The other mare, bagging at 285 days, sounds much too early. I agree that the Regumate and antibiotics should be started when premature udder development is discovered, and not wait until the mare is dripping milk. By then, things are so far advanced that it may not be possible to stop the process. The episode she had with raising her tail, sweating, trying to urinate, etc. could possibly have been because the foal was pinching her bowel and causing her pain. That is common and not usually a sign of danger because it passes when the foal shifts position enough to get off the bowel. I'll keep my fingers crossed that's all it was.

As far as the organophosphate poisoning itself, I'm afraid you've found another person without experience in that area. I've always been taught that you shouldn't use organophosphate dewormers in pregnant mares because of the risk of abortion. I did some research after reading your post, but couldn't find much. The only thing I read that might possibly be helpful was the use of cholinesterase reactivators. With all the people you've had working on this, though, I'm sure that possibility has already been explored. And, I have no idea if it would be useful now, to prevent abortion, or if it is something that is used in acute cases to prevent death in the individual that was directly exposed to the substance.

I know this has been a horrible ordeal for you, and I truly appreciate you sharing it with us. Your experience should make all of us give extra thought to the chemicals we put into our animals.

Thank you for writing and please, please let us know what happens with your mares and foals.

Follow up by Judy on February 1, 1999:

We received your book in the mail Saturday. In spite of the fact that our annual black-tie fund-raiser was that night and I needed a "massive" make-over to transition from "horse person", I couldn't put the book down! I had scheduled an appointment to have my hair put up. The hair dresser kept sighing, as he asked me to put the book down long enough to see if I liked what he was doing! When we got home after midnight, we continued reading it! (After checking the mares, of course!) We are leaving for DC tomorrow and your book will fly right alone beside us. I own just about every breeding and foaling manual out there, including some reproductive texts from vet schools. Yours is the clearest and most well illustrated. You are to be commended on your efforts! - RE: the mares. Today we are at 310 and 290 days. Neither are leaking milk. Neither bag is full. Our ranch manager is staying with them over-night while we are gone (Tues. night until Sun. noon). We got all their meds refilled today, so they won't run out while we are gone. The vet is on alert and only lives ~ 5 minutes from our house. Our son and daughter are staying home, have attended foalings and are going to be checking the mares repeatedly. Since they are not yet bagged up and the foals continue to be vigorous, I feel reasonably comfortable going with Walter on this business trip. At least I hope I do. Actually, we are both pretty nervous. But neither mare looks imminent. Will keep you posted upon our return. Thanks again for your wonderful service.

Hi Judy:

Now remind me, how much did I say I'd pay you for such a glowing book endorsement? However much, it wasn't enough!!

Thank you so very much. Your words mean more than I can say. I worked very hard to make the book as clear and comprehensive as possible, and it's wonderful to hear that you think it pretty well meets those goals. And if I may, I'd like to give Equine Research a big pat on the back. They believe in photos, photos, and more photos. My very patient husband and equally patient friend had taken photos of two delivery sequences. I liked one more than the other and for the book, Equine Research originally planned to use the one I didn't like as much. I brought that to their attention and their comment was, "That's easy, we'll use both of them."

Follow up by Judy on February 8, 1999:

Just an update and quick question. The mares are still holding on. 317 and 297 days. Neither is leaking milk. The one who is 297 days has very little udder development...we hit her with Regumate, antibiotics, and another drug (experimental) and the udder pretty much stopped growing. The mare seems comfortable most of the time. Perhaps just a little short of breath if she's been romping. The other one, at 317 has rather small development of her udder, but what is there is hard. The nipples are enlarging, but she is definitely not leaking or waxing. She still has small granules on the tips that look like sugar grains. Can the udder feel hard to the touch, yet not very large (still 2 distinct sides) at this stage and have that be normal? We are almost getting to a safe zone with her and we want these foals to be healthy soooooo badly!!!! Also, she seems to have a hematoma, about the size of a golf ball, sort of hanging down between her legs. They called the vet out while we were gone to check it out. He said it was just swelling and nothing to worry about. He also suggested that the mares should be basically stalled to prevent them from getting kicked, etc., this close to delivery. We only have the two mares together during the day when someone is with them all the time. They are stalled at night in their foaling stalls with closed circuit tv. Both are high energy mares who want to "burst" out of their stalls in the morning. I don't think keeping them stalled is necessarily the healthiest for them. They both do run and in general have fun. The vet is concerned about "jiggling things around in there". The one with the swelling is the most dominant of any of our 17 horses. I sincerely doubt that the other mare kicked her. As long as the mares are not leaking milk and seem healthy, what is your experience with stalling vs. arena exercise? We aren't letting them loose in the pasture because we are worried about residual OPs in the soil. Their stall area has been completely dug out. The arena was bull-dozed, plowed under (after removing all manure and hay), and fresh sand was brought in. Anyway, any ideas here as to the best approach (free choice exercise in a confined area vs. stalling in a 12 X 24 stall? Thanks again for your help.

Hi Judy,

Thanks for the update. I'm so relieved to hear that both mares are still holding on.

You asked about the mare's udder development, specifically the one at 317 days. Please forgive my failing memory, but is she a maiden? If she is, I think what you're seeing is absolutely normal. A maiden udder will many times feel more firm while still small than a mare's that has had foals before. Even if she has had foals before, I wouldn't be concerned about it at this stage. At 317 days, she should be bagging up and the udder can feel firm. It shouldn't feel overly warm, but can be firm. The continued presence of the granules on the nipples is generally a good sign. Although some mares will foal with them still present, most won't.

I'm sure your vet, after all you've been through, is just being ultra-cautious, and I don't blame him. However, I am of the belief that mares have been "jiggling things around in there" for as long as they've graced this planet. They're pretty good at knowing what they can do and what they can't do. If the mares were mine, as long as they're looking and feeling good, I'd certainly turn them out (or as in your case, into the arena). I wouldn't turn them out with other barren or less pregnant mares, but with each other sounds fine to me. The chances of them kicking each other and doing damage, although of course possible, are remote. Being stall bound can lead to more problems, such as swelling, driving themselves batty, etc. And speaking of that, it sounds like the one's swelling isn't anything to worry about.

The only other thing that crossed my mind about the vet's concern in turning the mares out is if he's worried about release of organophosphates due to exercise. I don't know if that's possible or if it has any bearing at all, but it did cross my mind, and I wanted to make sure we considered all possibilities. I would think, though, that if exercise hasn't bothered them so far, it shouldn't bother them now.

Please keep us updated!

Follow up by Judy on February 15, 1999:

Just a quick follow-up. One mare is now 324 days and one is 304 days gestation. We began weaning the 324 day mare off the Regumate last night. We plan to slowly taper her off over the next few nights. Yesterday at about 5 PM (BEFORE we lowered her Regumate dose) her udder size looked just the same as it had for several days. When I went to give the medication to the mares at 7 PM, one of the teats had swelled significantly! By this morning both have swelled. It is still not easy to express any fluid. However, the tail head is relaxed, the muscles are relaxing, and the vulva is relaxing. When we saw the changes last night we bedded her stall with hay (you can't get straw here), rechecked everything for safety, rechecked the cameras, and checked her repeatedly during the night. Since we can't easily express milk, do you feel the all night vigils can be postponed for a few nights? We are so worried, but both of us work. Before we started having problems we would wait until the milk was white and would then stay up all night...once for several weeks. Re: the rapid changes last night...can this be normal? The foal still seemed to be moving. The other mare is fine. We have had so many deaths, that my anxiety as this birth approaches is almost through the roof. I can't believe we have actually made it this far! The other mare is still hanging in there, without significant change. Thanks again for your help.

Hi Judy,

Thanks for the update. If memory serves, the mare you're talking about that's bagging up quickly is a maiden. They can do some pretty erratic things sometimes, so yes, the quick change is one I would consider to be normal--particularly if she's acting okay. It may still be quite awhile until she foals, however, I'd keep a pretty good watch on her for continued rapid changes. It's probably unlikely that she'll foal until you can fairly easily express fluid from her udder. She may foal before the fluid turns white, but there should at least be something there. Watch for increase in other physical changes and behavior changes. Congratulations on making 324! Even if she foals now, the foal has an excellent chance of being fine.

I'm sure there are many people keeping track of your story and wishing you well. We can't wait to hear about your new babies, so please continue keeping us updated!

Follow up by Judy on February 21, 1999:

Hi! We are at 330 and 310 days now !!!!!! Just stopped the Regumate on the 330 day mare a couple of days ago, after about a week of weaning down. So far everything looks good. The 330 day mare doesn't like to have her udders touched, but loves a good belly rub. I have been rubbing farther and farther back. Also applying warm compresses to her udder which she semi tolerates. Your book indicates that some mares don't like their udders touched prior to birth, but are still ok with the foals. Do you recommend that we just back off? This problem sort of makes getting milk for the foal predictor kit impossible. The other mare has absolutely no problem with having her udder touched. Both are maidens. 

Hi Judy,

Thanks so much for the update. Things are looking good!! And I'm so happy for you!

There's no problem in continuing to work with the mare about touching her udder. The only time I recommend people stop is when the mares are bad enough about it to be dangerous. Then, it just isn't worth it because mother nature usually kicks in after they foal. As long as she isn't trying to kill you, go for it. Maybe by the time she gets ready to foal, you'll have her to the point that you can use the predictor kit.

Thanks again for the update, and we can't wait to hear more!

Follow up by Judy on March 1, 1999:

IT'S A BIG (BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) BAY FILLY!!!!!!!!!!!! You were right! The mare laid down, Walter and Kim heard her water break on the closed circuit tv, they called me out to the barn (I was taking a much needed bath), and the birth began at 11:58 PM on 2/27. The foal was born at ~12:30+ AM on 2/28/99. One large foot presented. No other progress. Saw a rectal bulge. Cupped my (gloved) hand, located the other foot, eased it down and out, and the mare proceeded to push until, according to my daughter, her eyes almost "popped out". The mare, although a large mare, was very small compared to the size of the foal. Despite pushing, she made very little progress. We finally applied traction to the legs to keep them from going back, and felt along the legs to find the muzzle. There was very, very little room in there. Kept going until I was comfortable the shoulders were not caught and didn't feel any hind feet obstructing. The vet was already on the way. When we were confident that nothing was malpositioned or caught, we applied very mild traction with each contraction. The mare pushed, but the foal was so large compared to her vulva that even getting the head out, over the legs, was difficult. When the head was out, the nostrils began quivering and the legs began wriggling and it was obvious the little one was determined to try to breathe. Since ~ 30 minutes had lapsed since the water had broken, we decided it was time to exert a little more traction. That seemed to restart the mare's efforts and she started really pushing again and finally the foal was out. The mare had already torn when the head emerged, but hopefully not too badly. However, the cord ruptured at the time of delivery and blood was squirting from the maternal side of the cord. We figured that was probably ok, but so much blood was pooling that we ultimately pinched it off. The bleeding stopped immediately...and stayed stopped when released. The foal, in the mean time, was trying desperately to get to her feet, was obviously mad at the whole situation of being squashed, and started slamming her feet on the ground. We moved her to her mom's view and got the legs out of the way of the poor mare's vulva like your book suggested. Within a few minutes the baby was up and on a quest for food. Mom on the other hand stayed down a long time and was totally exhausted. By that time the vet had come and pronounced the foal in great shape. We waited on pins and needles for the mom to respond, sit up, er....look at her new baby. Finally she sort of moved up on her chest and started nickering. What a wonderful sound!!!! When she finally was able to get up she allowed the baby to nurse and never moved a single muscle. Her placenta hadn't passed in 3.5 hours, so the vet came back and gave her oxytocin. Within 30 or 45 minutes she passed the placenta with the vet applying constant, but gentle traction. It did pass intact. Despite her pain, she has been very careful with her little one. As a maiden mare, she really seems to have a high maternal instinct. She allows us to play with baby, but still wants her scratches too. - We won't know if the mare requires stitching yet, because when the vet came out for the third time today she was soooo swollen that he couldn't fully examine her. He's coming back to recheck her tomorrow. He has her on antibiotics, has us applying Nolvasan to the torn vulva, and, because of the cuts, wants us to keep her stall bound and out of the sand arena until some of the swelling subsides. The mare did reduce her appetite yesterday. She is crying out when she passes stool. She is urinating more easily now. Anyway, we want to extend our special thanks to you for writing that book. We were reasonably calm, kept track of the time (for the 40 minute limit), recognized the need to get the hoof down to prevent a recto-vaginal tear, hopefully limited the damage to the mare, and ended up with a healthy, living, wonderful, beautiful foal and a contented mom!!! - Although the foal initially seemed intent upon lying UNDER her mom, she had now seen the apparent error of her ways and is lying in the center of the stall, or close to one end, allowing her mom lots of room to walk around her. She is trotting and running in the stall...much to her mom's dismay!!! Hopefully we will be allowed to let them out tomorrow. - One other quick question: The amount of blood pouring from the maternal side of the umbilical cord when it severed at birth was quite significant. What, if anything, should be done when this happens?

Thanks again for your support! The next mare is 318 days today and still hanging in there. I think we will get another living baby!!!!!!!

CONGRATULATIONS, JUDY!!!

I am so very happy for you! And I know everyone who reads this column is cheering for you! You did a wonderful job, both figuring out the initial problem and with the delivery. The foal should be named after you!

The blood coming from the maternal side of the umbilical cord isn't a problem. It's the blood that was retained in the placenta leaking out. When the umbilical cord can stay intact for a while after delivery, that blood usually drains into the foal. The important thing is to be sure the foal's umbilical stump isn't bleeding. The maternal side doesn't matter.

Thanks so very much for letting us know about your beautiful new foal and her healthy Mom! We'll all be keeping our fingers crossed that everything goes as well for the second mare. Enjoy!

Follow up by Judy on March 31, 1999:

We are very pleased to announce the birth of a live, healthy full-term colt to our other mare!!!!!! The medications were stopped at 328 days, and she delivered yesterday morning at ~7:00. We had been staying up nightly for 2 weeks, so everyone was quite tired, but absolutely elated!!!!! The mare's croup muscles and vulva relaxed about 2 weeks ago. However, the milk in her reasonably small udder was clear but yellow-tinged at the time. As a maiden, and with our history, the guys decided foal watch was indicated. Finally about 4 days ago, her udder started really getting hard and filling. Monday, the milk went from yellow tinged to crystal clear. I was worried that she was actually regressing!!! We have 2 foreign exchange students from Germany with us for Spring Break, who helped with foal watch Monday night. They reported that the mare was lifting her tail up most of the time, urinating very frequently, and seemed "super" alert. Then she started "backing" into walls. Our son went out for the 3 AM shift and checked her milk. It was still crystal clear. Geez!!!! We stuck with it and at ~6:50 AM our farm manager who had come on duty called the house and said she was getting ready to deliver! We zoomed to the barn, the mare was down, head and chest delivered! The rascal mare decided at that point that it was time to stand up. We decided it probably wasn't, so Walter and Thomas sort of held her down, I pulled a little on the foal, she started pushing again, and there he was!!!! He was up and nursing within a short period of time and the mare has been absolutely wonderful!!!! However, I think her maternal instincts are going rampant, because she is not only protective of her own baby, but is calling to the month old foal with that nickering kind of mother sound whenever she sees her in an adjacent arena. I don't think that filly's mom appreciates it at all!!!! Anyway, all is well!!!!! - One funny thing did happen...I looked at the foal and proudly pronounced it a filly. Several hours later, when I was putting iodine on the navel, I noticed that the tissue behind the umbilical stump did not look like tiny teats. Upon closer examination, and lifting the tail, I discovered the error of my ways! I called the vet right out, thinking something was wrong because he wasn't well endowed. The vet just laughed...said it was normal. By evening it was completely clear what his sex was! I suppose at birth, things just haven't come down yet. :)

One question...The mother of the month old foal just went back into heat. The foal has watery diarrhea and isn't wanting to nurse much. She is drinking water and eating grain. Can drinking water cause watery diarrhea (one of the foal manuals states this) or is it more likely heat in the mare? She foal is still running around. We gave her Kaopectate. Regards, Judy, happy, happy, Judy :)

Dear Judy, happy, happy, Judy :-)

Congratulations! I know everyone has been waiting to hear about your second healthy foal! How wonderful it is that things have turned around for you! And believe me, you aren't the first (and won't be the last) to mistake a colt for a filly! :-)

It isn't uncommon for foals to get diarrhea when the mare comes into the 30-day heat. However, anytime a foal of that age isn't nursing well it's cause for concern, since it's possible that the diarrhea is getting out of control. Keep a close watch on the foal because antibiotics may be called for. I have also read that foals drinking water can cause diarrhea. But, I have seen a lot of foals drink quite a bit of water without getting diarrhea, and even if they have diarrhea and are drinking water, my tendency is to think it's a good thing because they are at least keeping themselves from getting dehydrated. So, I'm not sure I put much credence in the theory that water causes diarrhea. The only exception I can think of is a few foals I've seen that seemed to become "fascinated" with drinking water, and drank and drank and drank. Even those, though, didn't really seem to be adversely effected.

Again, congratulations, and I hope the trouble with the organophosphates is now a thing of the past!

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Submitted by Lil in the USA on January 28, 1999:

My 18 year old brood mare aborted her fetus last night. The pregnancy was about 9 months along and the mare was up to date on Pneumabort vaccinations. The mare was due to foal near the end of March. There was no warning that I was able to recognize--found the dead fetus, a perfect filly with placenta too, at 9:30 PM when I went out to check on another mare that is due to foal anytime. The mother of the aborted fetus is in good condition this morning. She was banging on her bucket, wanting her breakfast. Last year (normal gestation), her foal was exceptionally oversized and malpositioned. A veterinarian assisted the delivery, but the foal died soon after birth. My mare bled a lot and was terribly swollen, but recovered quickly and was bred back easily. My guess is that she lost this year's baby because of damage to her cervix from the previous delivery. I would assume that it would not be wise to breed this mare again. I will be looking into embryo transfer, as she is an exceptionally high quality mare that has beautiful babies. What do you think?

Hi Lil,

I'm so sorry that the mare aborted. It's always so hard.

If she got back in foal easily last year, and stayed in foal that long, there's probably a good chance that the loss of this foal wasn't due to the foaling injuries. There are many reasons why a mare might abort at that stage of pregnancy. A good vet should be able to do a vaginal speculum exam of the cervix and a uterine biopsy to tell you if the mare is a candidate for further breeding. If she isn't, then embryo transfer would be a good option. However, I'd sure have her checked out before going that route. If you haven't done it, the other thing I might suggest is to have her progesterone level tested if you decide to breed her again. In older mares, that's always worth checking.

Best of luck and I hope you get more beautiful babies out of your mare.

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Submitted by Kelly in the USA on January 29, 1999:

I went back and read all of the back questions and no one asked this one. My mares schedule has her being wormed right at her due date. If ivermectrin was used six weeks before should I hold off until after the baby is due? Then after the baby is delivered how long before I can worm mom again? Thank you so much for having this website. I now feel that I am not the only one out there looking for information.

Hi Kelly,

I'm very glad you've enjoyed the website, and thanks for the question.

My personal opinion is that it would be best to wait until about a week after the mare foals to deworm her again.

To be thorough, though, I'll tell you that there will be people who will disagree with this opinion. Recently, it has become popular to worm foaling mares with ivermectrin within the first twelve hours after delivery. The theory is that doing this kills the larva of Strongyloides westeri, which can be passed to the foal through the mare's milk. Some people feel the infection of the foal with this parasite is what causes foal heat scours and that scours can be prevented by worming the mare right after delivery. I have some problems with this. First--I don't like to do anything to immediate postpartum mares that might cause them stress. Second--I haven't seen conclusive proof that foal heat scours is caused by S. Westeri, and I've had too many people who've used ivermectrin right after delivery tell me that their foals still scoured. There have been many studies done on foal heat scours that show a foal will still get it even if it is taken away from its mother at delivery and raised in a sterile environment. As far as I know, no one has proven conclusively what causes foal heat scours. Third--I've read articles by veterinarians stating that it may actually be detrimental to the foal to deworm specifically for this parasite because it is one that horses build up an immunity to. By deworming for it right after the mare foals, the foal doesn't build up an immunity to it and has to do it later, thereby presenting the possibility that the parasite can actually do more damage than if nature is left to run its course. Example: Parasitology - Internal Parasites of Horses

I truly don't know what's correct and what isn't, but since I'm not convinced that this is what causes foal heat scours, I'm still reluctant to stress a mare by using a dewormer so soon after delivery. So, I'd wait a week after foaling to worm her. There now, that's more than you bargained for, isn't it? :-) I hope this answered your question without causing too much confusion!

Thanks for writing and let us know all about your new foal.

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Submitted by Susy in the USA on February 1, 1999:

My eight year old maiden mare is nine months pregnant,she has always had a heavy winter coat and is probably overweight now, the weather here in Michigan is in the 40's now, my question : would having a heavy coat and extra pounds and the weather being too warm for this time of year cause her to sweat? [she is shedding like it's Spring]. She has done this before[about seven months] when it was balmy out. She sweats on her neck, girth area, flanks and under her belly, it's a cold sweat. I talked to her vet and she wasn't concerned about it [as long as she's eating and acting "normal"] Should I consult another vet? Or do you have any wise words for me? She's eating fine. Her bag is looking like it's beginning to start something. I've worked on a breeding farm but never saw this before [the sweating] any advice would be great! She's been wormed every two months and has had her rhinos. I'm guessing it's too much heat for her, the weather, her coat, and hay. Thanks for your time! I've got your book, wonderful!!

Hi Susy,

My gut feeling is that the sweating is due to just what you said--heavy coat, extra weight, and warm weather. If your weather is like ours, it's also been very damp outside. That could contribute, too. As long as she's acting and eating okay, I would not worry about it, unless the sweating becomes more than just dampness and turns into running sweat. It's normal for her to be shedding now. The broodmares I've worked with almost always starting dropping hair in January. The thing you said that most concerned me is that she may be starting to bag up. It's too early for that. If it continues, I'd certainly get that checked out as it may be a sign of placentitis or some other problem. As always, if you notice any chances in her behavior, or if her sweating or udder increases, it's always best to call the vet and have her looked at.

I'm very glad you like the book. Thank you! Take care, and let us know how it goes,

Follow up by Susy on March 10, 1999:

Hi, I wrote you back in feb.about my 8 yr. old maiden mare. She was sweating on her neck, flanks, belly. Well we got through that. Today she sure was acting like she was in first stage labor, biting her front leg, kicking her belly, swishing her tail, flaring nostrils. I was flipping out ! She is at 303 days, way early for baby to show up. Is this normal pre-labor discomfort? She is wimpy when it comes to pain. I called the vet, she figured it was the baby moving into position etc. She advised to give banamine for the discomfort, that has helped. The mare is still all normal in the hind end, hips, vulva, bag, etc. Do I need to start sleeping in the barn yet ?[I will anyway] Thanks for any input, I'll keep you posted !

Hi Susy,

It sounds like she has the maiden mare "syndrome." She doesn't understand that she's pregnant and when the foal gets into a position that's uncomfortable for her, she lets you know about it. This sometimes also happens with experienced mares if the foal is in a position that's really painful for them, but it happens much more frequently with maiden mares. If she does it again, a brisk walk of 10-20 minutes might help shift the foal's position into one that's more comfortable for her. Otherwise, Banamine usually helps. As long as she isn't showing any physical changes indicating that delivery is near, there probably isn't any reason for you to sleep in the barn yet. Now remember, that's just my best guess! :-) They can always pull a quickie without any warning.

Please do keep us updated.

Follow up by Susy on March 20, 1999:

Hi again, well we're at 313 days(eight year old maiden showing signs of first stage labor march 10) Today there was pinkish heavy mucous at her vulva, I freaked ! Horse isn't acting like she's ready yet, no milk(had my poor husband go get milk replacer just in case) baby is bouncing around in there like it's ready to see the world ! The mare doesn't seem too worried. No signs of any stage of labor. Still all normal in rear. Hopefully she hangs on for another 12 days or so. Any advice would be great again!! Thanks, this site is THE BEST! Will keep you updated!

Hi Susy,

I would have freaked, too! Then tried to remind myself that maiden mares sometimes do weird things. And would still keep a close watch on her, of course! :-) I don't know why maiden mares sometimes do such erratic things, but my assumption is that they can get erratic bursts of hormones. I'd still do what you've been doing--keep observing her closely for any other changes--but since she isn't progressing in other ways, I think there's an excellent chance that she'll hold off until she's in a safe range to deliver. You should be there in another week, at 320 days. I wish I had some wonderful words of wisdom to really ease your mind, but all I can say is keep watching. Just what you wanted to hear, huh?

Hang in there and please do keep us updated.

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Submitted by Jennie in the USA on February 5, 1999:

First of all I love your web page here. It has been most helpful.

I have a mixed breed mare part Tenn.Walker. I purchased her in Dec. knowing she was with foal. She is due as well as I know in March, She was in poor condition when I got her but has improved greatly. I don't think this is her first foal from all the signs. Her udder looks as though it has been filled out before, ect... She is around 15 and is a Palomino color.

Anyway to my question(s) , she has a temperamental disposition, although I think she is more relaxed with me than my husband. What I'm wondering is, do you think she will let me help her if need be when she does foal. I plan to spend the last of this month in the barn. This is my first by the way, and I don't want to miss it ! I know most mares lie down to foal and I don't want to risk startling her to make her stand up. I have read your article on your book here on the internet and plan to get your book. You have been most helpful and easy to read ! My mare has started to relax in her hip area and has a dropped look to her tummy, so I think she is on schedule. I would appreciate any help you could give me about handling mares with an attitude!:-)

Hi Jennie,

The best thing you can do is spend as much time as possible with her before she foals. When I foal new mares, I always try to spend time with them beforehand, grooming, etc., because I truly believe you can build a rapport and gain their confidence (most of the time!). When foaling time comes, you'll just have to play it by ear. If your presence seems to bother her, then back off and watch from a place where she can't see you. It's very important not to disrupt the process. The book does discuss mares that want to be left alone.